[phizikl]

hi, there is so much vague information out there, i would like from anyone here to share their experience with layering different techniques...

binaural beats as ive now read isnt as effective as monaural, and even less effective than isochronic, yet ive also read that isochronic doesnt do a good job bringing you in delta?

also, the brain obviously doesnt vibrate in just one of these freq bands, it will be doing all that parallel, so im thinking about layering as many tones as possible without getting rid of entrainment effect...

if i have isochronic at 8hz that would eliminate having a 2nd isochronic tone as both of them together would create another rythm which wouldnt equal any of the two, (canceling out the effect i assume)


so lets say i have isochronic at 8hz (180hz carrier)
then i could add a binaural beat at 4hz (120 -124 carrier)
could i then add a monaural beat of 6hz, i guess that would be like binaural only on one channel, so i could do 6hz ( 130-136carrier) in right ear (leftbrain) and 10hz ( 140-150)in left ear (rightbrain)

these would be a total of 4 rythms...

would that even be possible, i will try it out anyways, but iwould like to know what experience you guys have with that... do they cancel each other out, how many are possible, how effective is it?


i really would like an EEG database because it really seems the only way to know whats going on, anything else is just subjective assumptions i guess.. would really like to know more "facts"

even thinking about getting the portable pendant eeg next year at some point, but until then i will have to do without "proof"


thanks for the help and lookin forward to some answers

greets
ian

[CraigT]

Hi Ian,

Have you made your way to my blog? A lot of the things you're asking about are discussed there (if you don't feel like wading through the whole lot, use the search).

A problem you are encountering is that there is almost no definitive information available on brainwave stimulus/entrainment. Apart from the fact that the brain can lock-step with an externally applied frequency, and that certain rhythms are associated with specific thought processes, the field is experimental.

There are, however, a great many small studies documented that provide useful leads for experimentation. The Transparent documentation is full of references and they are well worth following. Most AVS vendor websites also include libraries - Mind Alive and MindPlace are good sources.

I most strongly suggest that you become familiar with the effects of "simple" sessions, such as the NP2 presets, before worrying about enhancing their effectiveness. In my experience, most "enhancements" are aesthetic and diminish the raw entrainment potential.

Cheers,
Craig

[phizikl]

CraigT, on 10 December 2009 - 07:36 PM, said:

Hi Ian,

Have you made your way to my blog? A lot of the things you're asking about are discussed there (if you don't feel like wading through the whole lot, use the search).

A problem you are encountering is that there is almost no definitive information available on brainwave stimulus/entrainment. Apart from the fact that the brain can lock-step with an externally applied frequency, and that certain rhythms are associated with specific thought processes, the field is experimental.

There are, however, a great many small studies documented that provide useful leads for experimentation. The Transparent documentation is full of references and they are well worth following. Most AVS vendor websites also include libraries - Mind Alive and MindPlace are good sources.

I most strongly suggest that you become familiar with the effects of "simple" sessions, such as the NP2 presets, before worrying about enhancing their effectiveness. In my experience, most "enhancements" are aesthetic and diminish the raw entrainment potential.

Cheers,
Craig

hi craig,
you were one of the people i was hoping to get in touch with
i did make it to your blog, and i very much appreciate it! one of the reasons also why i posted this question, because you mention alot of things that make sense, and bring it back down to the reality that this is just experimental, not enough validation for any amount of people to say that anything works, everytime...

i do think however that just a straight tone will not be as effective as layering many beats overanother, the question just is, when do they cancel each other out, when do they not do that,

you also posted that monaural beats 5x stronger than binaural beats, also very interesting, yet at same time in your blog you say using isocrhonic tones to bring you into delta doesnt really happen...

so i think monaural-binaural might still be very useful for deeper frequencies... starting with isochronic until you get down to 7 or 6hz and continuing with monaural binaural from there maybe?


also someone else posted a link about the brain evolution system, a 3d bla bla approach (yet another "better than anyone elsßes" entrainment site but the difference there is they mention exactly that that isochronic is not as effective on the delta range and they combine all technqiues, different layers to have a better effect...


i have been experimenting with binaural beats for 2 years so all this is not new to me, just neuroprogrammer the software, and now my newly obought mindmachine sirius, which i think is a good start considering the price, i just rea^lly wanted a audio strobe decoder, and it comes with glasses, which im sure arent the best (like david system) but i just wanted to get started with AVS because it seems to be more effective than just AS--- at the same time it is so much input visually, i feel like to REALLY relax turning off the LEDs also helps relax

anyways...

i undertsand that adding too many elements in a mix will lead to unpredictability, but i think starting off with 2 layers could be a beginning to understanding the effectivity of more than one entrainment layer (and addition of monaural-binaural with isochronics)


so if you have anything more from your experience to share let me know, or if you want to find out yourself it would be nice to have a group of people listening to same beats and share the reports to gather some data... (i would also like to know what conclusions you have made with working with gamma, as i rea^lly havent worked with that)


greets
ian

This post has been edited by phizikl: 11 December 2009 - 08:53 AM

[CraigT]

The best results I've had with multifrequency stimulation is where each frequency is delivered by a different channel - left ear, right ear, red/green visual and blue visual - and where there is a considerable difference in range - such as theta audio/gamma visual - or where the stimulus is substantially different - clicks over a tone for example. The most important thing as far as I'm concerned is to start with a hypothesis, an intellectual justification for thinking that a particular technique or combination might be useful.

Closely spaced frequencies, whether the signal is isochronic, monaural or binaural, do mix in ways that makes their effectiveness doubtful.

Entraining to delta is difficult regardless of stimulus used. Binaural may have an edge over others in this respect, simply because it is the easiset to fall asleep to, and when you fall asleep you tend to slip into delta - I am not wholly convinced that awake and delta really happen at the same time, as there's a lot of tricks the mind can play in that awake/asleep boundary region.

The most interesting results I've had with gamma are in conjunction with theta, drawing on the research that links the two in cognitive binding.

Most of all, experiment and have fun.

Cheers,
Craig

[Jay_NOLA]

Hey Phizikl,

in the NP2 he help file the use of multiple frequencies is talked about. If your using multiple ones your going to end up with something that isn'y going to be effective. Those tones are all combining.Now you can use a difffrent frequency for each headphone certrain on hemisphere of the brain in a diffrent way from another.
You also could use two isochronic tones to make a binaural beats if you wanted to use of combination of using both in a session See the attached NP2Pro session for an examaple of this.

Attached File(s)

•  isochronics make binaural beat.nps (15.36K)
  Number of downloads: 18